The Worlds Most Overrated Car?

"Road Magazine" (roadmag) 12/29/2013 at 16:04 • Filed to: Overrated Cars, Toyota Prius

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Just some harmless discussion. What do you think is the worlds most overrated car? Personally, I think it's the Toyota Prius, economy and value wise.

I can elaborate on it further but I'd rather save my typing energy on something more worth it.

Gimmi-Sagan-Om-Draken > Road Magazine 12/29/2013 at 16:08

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Its not a car, its and appliance. They are like sweat pants, once you buy them and wear them every day, you have given up on life.

davedave1111 > Road Magazine 12/29/2013 at 16:08

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The Ferrari F40 is pretty over-rated, to be honest. It does what it does, but no-one ever talks about what it doesn't do so well, which is pretty much everything. For five minute bursts it's one of the greatest cars ever built, but driving in one is a bit like being in a Clarkson-built V10 powered tumble-dryer - hot, noisy, painful, and worries about whether it'll all hold together - so you really can't do more than a couple of laps at a time in one.

There's a very good reason you can still buy them relatively cheaply.

Leadbull > Road Magazine 12/29/2013 at 16:09

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Miata.

[banhammer drops]

Lets Just Drive > Road Magazine 12/29/2013 at 16:10

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If it's a 'burban cruiser for the school run and is badged BMW, Porsche or Mercedes; it's over-rated.

My hovercraft is full of eels > Road Magazine 12/29/2013 at 16:11

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I'll let Mr. Harris explain. I just love his remark about the Miata vs. the 205 GTi at the end (and how it pissed off my most annoying MX-5-crazy acquaintance). :-)

For me, the Prius is a strong second. Third? VW Golf perhaps (although I drive a Golf-based car).

Goshen, formerly Darkcode > Road Magazine 12/29/2013 at 16:12

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The answer is always Miata.

Except this time, is Bugatti Veyron. Or Nissan GT-R.

Dunnik > Road Magazine 12/29/2013 at 16:12

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I'd say your on pretty safe ground with the Prius as the World's Most Overrated Car.

Lazzris > Road Magazine 12/29/2013 at 16:22

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I maybe hated for this one but I think the huayra is over rated. Yes it is a beautiful piece of machinery but way to over the top. It has become more of an art piece then a car to drive.

Random Commenter > davedave1111 12/29/2013 at 16:23

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There's a very good reason you can still buy them relatively cheaply.

Yeah... Ok... $600k-$1 Million... Let me go dig that out of my couch cushions... Cheaply... Ha.

JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 > Road Magazine 12/29/2013 at 16:29

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All of these modern, technology-saddled supercars. Sure, the tech and numbers are great and all, but they don't count for all that much when you turn the key.

/puts flamesuit on

VicVinegar > davedave1111 12/29/2013 at 16:29

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I could be wrong, but I am fairly certain that the F40 was intended to do one thing, and only one thing, well. It was not created to be a comfortable GT car, but to be incredibly fast.

Is it idolized by a large number of enthusiasts? Definitely, but few, if any, of those enthusiasts are under the impression that the F40 is anything other than a lightweight, powerful machine with a singular purpose.

davedave1111 > Random Commenter 12/29/2013 at 16:34

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I did say 'relatively' :)

But compared to their iconic status, they are actually remarkably cheap. $600k-$1m seems a bit high to me. I've seen them for under £300k within the last year, up to around £500k - although not all have asking prices, so maybe the best go for more. That's about $500k-800k, so a bit lower than you're thinking but not a lot.

Of course that's still a huge amount of money to most people, but compared to other cars of similar repute, or other highly regarded Ferraris, it's not that much. A McLaren F1 goes for at least ten times as much, although of course they're also a lot rarer. Ferrari Daytonas go for similar money to F40s, as do things like 250 GTEs.

davedave1111 > VicVinegar 12/29/2013 at 16:41

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I'm not talking about GT standards of comfort, but about a car so uncomfortable that you literally can't do an hour-long stint without requiring physio, maybe medical treatment, unless you're a race-fit professional driver or some such.

It is quite unimaginably hot, noisy and uncomfortable - race tracks are normally pretty smooth, so if you're getting banged about painfully on track, you can imagine how rock-hard the suspension is, and how little padding the seats have. The cabin cooling is so ineffective that you'll dehydrate pretty rapidly, too. And of course if you're not wearing earplugs, you'll go deaf.

It's a massively physical experience, utterly visceral, and something that's so extreme you can only handle it in very small doses. It's that last part which is why the car's over-rated by those who haven't experienced it: if it was at least a bit more drivable, the F40 would merit every word of the adulation it receives.

Joe_Limon > Road Magazine 12/29/2013 at 16:41

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I have a few nominees. Veyron, Camry (even chevy does the Camry thing better apparently), land rovers, 911, R8, G8.

davedave1111 > Goshen, formerly Darkcode 12/29/2013 at 16:49

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Is the Veyron over-rated? Really? Seems to me that if anything it's a bit under-rated because it's not a raw hypercar for the track, given how good it is at what it actually does.

Joe_Limon > davedave1111 12/29/2013 at 16:52

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No I agree on the veyron. People fall head over heals over power/speed... Yet fail to realize the veyron is a very simple design... Keep adding things/weight till it can go fast enough...

davedave1111 > Joe_Limon 12/29/2013 at 16:59

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The Veyron is a simple design idea, but not a simple design - couldn't be further from one, in fact. But for me the important part is what the car actually does, which is cross continents faster than anything else with wheels, in great comfort. There's never been any car better at being a GT car, so I can't really see how the Veyron can be considered over-rated.

Goshen, formerly Darkcode > davedave1111 12/29/2013 at 16:59

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It's underrated among hardcore car enthusiasts. Only. Everyone else considers it to be the be-all end-all of motoring.

davedave1111 > Goshen, formerly Darkcode 12/29/2013 at 17:01

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You may have a point there. And of course any car considered to be the last word in motoring is over-rated by anyone who thinks that, too.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Road Magazine 12/29/2013 at 17:08

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Toyobaru twins. I get it, it's RWD. Guess what? It's just a good car. It is not some savior of the enthusiast car nor is it particularly exceptional outside of being a RWD car made by toyota and sold in the US.

I'll also take this a step further - I remember all the bile and hate spewed at GM for releasing concept ideas of their own FR-S competitor a few years ago......really? This is why I hate enthusiasts sometimes - there are quite a few hypocrites out there. Yes, as-is, they would probably not be the best things ever made. But instead of saying "I would buy a chevy FR-S but you need to ______" many said "OMG BURN IN HELL WTF IS CHEVY THINKING!!!11!!1!1!!!" and so guess what? They're probably not making one now. Too bad as it would give toyota reason to develop that car further and take that segment more seriously. In fact, having a few automakers applying pressure to that segment could cause all of them to be better since it would be.....wait for it..... competitive . But no, heap praise on a mediocre/good car and shun everyone else.

Joe_Limon > davedave1111 12/29/2013 at 17:33

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I still disagree... A high tech design would have ended up with a car that didn't weigh about as much as a full sized truck. Seriously... 90% of veyron design is solving design challenges by throwing more things at the problem. A high tech design is coming up with a single intercooler system to cool all aspects of the vehicle... Not 13 of them for each and every part that requirescooling. as far as automotive and aerospace designs go... Less is more, and the veyron goes against all that. If I made a car with four v8 engines powering each wheel would that make it high tech or amazing or good? Hell no.

deadlypixels > Joe_Limon 12/29/2013 at 18:01

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I just feel like the Veryon generated wayy to much hype. Yes it is fast. Yes it is probably more comfortable and practical than a lot of supercars (hypercars?) while still laying down some seriously impressive numbers. Except... every time I look at it, I see a heavy and complicated Bentley. Plus I never really thought of them as good looking. It may be a good GT car but it is not going to occupy a place in my (hypothetical) garage. Just my $0.02

deadlypixels > Gimmi-Sagan-Om-Draken 12/29/2013 at 18:02

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Your comment made me laugh. I'm not a fan of the Prius either.

Burrito de EJ25 > Goshen, formerly Darkcode 12/29/2013 at 18:17

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The Nissan GT-R is properly rated.

signintokinjalol > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 12/29/2013 at 18:24

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It's a great platform, good engine, stupid easy to work on. Light for modern day times, great safety rating. It has a great wheel base that won't beat you up if you fuck up (Miata). It's also good looking and only really costs anywhere from $25,000-30,000 depends on the model. Also the automatic is really darn good for the price of the car.

You can track it, auto x it, daily drive it, rally it, street drive it. It's quite a versatile little thing. There's multiple superchargers and turbochargers kit in case it's too slow for someone. Though in truth it isn't slow, it's not fast but nor is it slow. I drove an RS7 and then drove my little FRS, sure the RS7 was stupid fast but i didn't really find it to be slow. People are spoiled, SUV's are doing 0-60 in mid 6's.

It also has one of the biggest aftermarket platforms ever, it's ridiculous how much there is to choose from, lips, body kits, taillights, coil overs, struts, springs. The list goes on. The community is great, you have people from Miatas to Corvettes buying one of them.

It's also a great starter car, the traction control is very forgiving if you want to induce some oversteer. The harder you push it, the better it is to drive. (Unlike the 370Z) The engine bay is huge so there are plenty of engine swaps to choose from. The list goes on...

You see, it's what the twins have become that has made them so great, not what they are. But what they have become! There aren't that many cars like this, a V6 Mustang is still great but it isn't as lively.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > signintokinjalol 12/29/2013 at 18:41

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Mustang GT, Genesis Coupe, Camaro 1LE, WRX, GTI, Focus/Fiesta ST, Miata, Speed3, and others are all available for about the same price as the FR-S and are already good at everything. Hell all of these besides the miata are more practical than the FR-S and can be used as your only car with a straight face. Yet all of these are forgotten because....oh right! The hypocritical nature of the modern enthusiast!

And really, an automatic FR-S? At least in the GTI the automatic is the dual clutch option so it's either more engaging as a manual or faster as an automatic. I have said before I;ve driven it and found it to be nothing special and I say that again here. It is good at what it does but really, everything in your response can be said about other vehicles that can also be driven every day with no compromise.

Oh, one final note on the "lack of power" - it's not that the FR-S is slow as much as the fact that it is quite expensive for not getting a whole lot. The WRX is more powerful, more useable, better handling (numbers wise), and can be used year round and costs the same as the BRZ that sits on the same lot. Yes, you might prefer the BRZ for wanting a RWD 2-seater over an AWD hatch or sedan but please consider how expensive it is for what you get (or are not getting). And again, you can get well over 300hp or even 400hp in the pony cars for not much more money so if you want a RWD performance coupe, the mustang and camaro are endlessly tuneable to whatever you want or desire. So if as you put it "it's not what they are, it's what they become" then there is no defending the FR-S as anything other than the beige/toyota-fied version of a RWD sports car.

davedave1111 > Joe_Limon 12/29/2013 at 18:52

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"If I made a car with four v8 engines powering each wheel would that make it high tech or amazing or good?"

Er, hell goddamn yes a quad-engined four-wheel drive with 32 cylinders would be fucking awesome.

ktfright | Kinja Neighborhood Black Guy > Road Magazine 12/29/2013 at 19:03

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Any 3-Series BMW.

mr. idk > Road Magazine 12/29/2013 at 19:20

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NISSAN GT-R

And heres why:

The GT-R is worshiped for being the best & fastest car for your money, but what GTR fanbois wont tell you is that the Corvette Z06 will beat it around the track, and costs even less. Oh, and dont forget that the Z06 is waaaay cheaper to maintain, and actually has RWD, and a manual transmission. The vette also isnt ugly as sin, it's lighter, and most importantly, it has a 427. The Z06 is the true budget supercar, and the GT-R is a phony

VicVinegar > davedave1111 12/29/2013 at 19:20

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Despite my lack of personal experience with the car, other than standing next to one on occasion, I am inclined to say that the characteristics you describe are, at least in part, the reasons why the car is so esteemed. It was designed almost entirely without compromise. It is absurd that it can even be driven on the road. For me, that is the allure of such cars, the idea of driving what is essentially a race car on the same roads as a Dodge Caravan or a Nissan Cube. Sure the car is uncomfortable, painful even, but it's the totality of the experience that makes the car so special. It is impossible for a car to provide the level of visceral involvement found in the F40 while simultaneously being tolerably comfortable and quiet. The negative and positive aspects must exist together to produce the experience that is the F40.

Obviously all of this is simply my opinion and I may very well be crazy, but I absolutely love the idea of an obscenely brutal car.

mr. idk > Road Magazine 12/29/2013 at 19:24

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Simply because a V6 Mustang/Camaro/Challenger is faster, cheaper, handles better is better looking (ask the average person if a muscle car looks better than the BRZ), and the challenger has somewhat usable back seats.

davedave1111 > VicVinegar 12/29/2013 at 19:30

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"The negative and positive aspects must exist together to produce the experience that is the F40."

I completely agree, but it's also what stops the F40 achieving true greatness in anything other than the most limited sense. It's so brutal it's almost undrivable.

To be clear, I'm not saying the F40 isn't a very good car, because that would be ridiculous. But it's not a true great because it's too compromised in the pursuit of doing one thing in a really extreme way.

Like I said, it's reflected in the prices. Not many people would turn down the chance for a couple of laps in an F40, but when it comes to actually owning one, it loses a lot of its attraction.

Leadbull > Lets Just Drive 12/29/2013 at 20:00

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Lieutenant Dan, you got a new screen name and avatar!

VicVinegar > davedave1111 12/29/2013 at 20:11

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That I can agree with, though I don't think I am ready to call it the Worlds Most Overrated Car.

davedave1111 > VicVinegar 12/29/2013 at 20:14

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Round here it might be just about the most over-rated car, but you're right, in general it's not. I didn't mean to imply it was the winner, just an honourable mention.

VicVinegar > davedave1111 12/29/2013 at 20:24

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Fair enough. I would have to say around here the E30 and Miata would put up a serious fight though.

signintokinjalol > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 12/29/2013 at 20:28

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And really, an automatic FR-S?

That's where i take my leave.

I've made my point, there is no denying it is a great platform that is still growing.

davedave1111 > VicVinegar 12/29/2013 at 20:37

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The E30's slipping into over-rated territory as prices go up - because the whole point was that they were great value, not the most brilliant cars ever. MX-5s aren't really over-rated at all, though. They really are excellent value little roadsters, and in fact they're so good that no-one even tries to make a competitor anymore.

VicVinegar > davedave1111 12/29/2013 at 20:45

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Agreed on the E30. I absolutely love them, but the prices are becoming absurd. I also like the Miata, and they are excellent cars, especially for the money, however, many enthusiasts would lead you to believe that the Miata is the single greatest thing to happen to the human race.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > signintokinjalol 12/29/2013 at 20:59

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Um, yes I can "deny" it because it isn't as great as you say it is. If you stopped reading my comment because I dismiss the automatic transmission then you are part of the hypocritical group I call out. The car is good. Not great, but good. However, you are turning a blind eye to everything else and in the end, the car will languish on the vine for no other reason than you snubbed competition before it even happened.

I've found that the cultists of the toyobaru cite the wight number over and over as if it somehow means the car is magically better. Yes, less weight means less work for the engine to do and less weight to shift around in the turns. But the weight number doesn't matter, it is how the car carries its weight that counts the most to me. And truth be told, the FR-S does a pretty shitty job of it. Why do I say that? Let's look at those figures again - A high 6 second 0-60 and a lateral grip of just under 0.9 g. Braking from 60 to 0 is 115-125 feet depending on the review. What if I told you that those numbers are equal, not better, but equal to a 7-year old MkV GTI? The newest GTIs will beat ALL of those figures for 25k sticker price (many going for less) and those are the outgoing models with the new MkVII coming in next year which does all of those even better still. Oh and by the way, the MkV and MkVI tipped the scales at least 300 lbs heavier than the toyobaru's 2800lb curb weight. The MkVII is poised to be a bit moer than 2900 lbs.....I think I'll take the 100Lb weight hit for a much better car overall, or just get a miata and go with an actual sports car.

tl;dr - it's light but does absolute fuck all with it. It's good, but a far cry from great. Competition would probably get the engineers to make it great, but shunning competition before it can even happen means you'll have a mediocre car in the long run. Enjoy.

In a Mini; let them mock me as My Mini Countryman is higher than you > mr. idk 12/30/2013 at 00:52

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SHUT YO BITCHASS MOUTH. NISMO GTR WILL BLOW A HOLE IN THE VETTE.

Goshen, formerly Darkcode > Burrito de EJ25 12/30/2013 at 05:50

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People discuss it like it can put bus lengths on a litre bike and no car in the world can come close to its prowess. How is that "properly rated" when there are faster cars out there and it is known for being clinical as well as a mediocre DD?

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > Joe_Limon 12/30/2013 at 06:50

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I'm curious as to how Land Rovers are overated, they can do exactly what they're designed to do. It's not the fault of the company if customers don't use the vehicle as intended.

Eric Sundell > Road Magazine 12/30/2013 at 07:31

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Subaru WRX.

Joe_Limon > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 12/30/2013 at 10:15

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It comes down to having an unreliable offroad vehicle.

Burrito de EJ25 > Goshen, formerly Darkcode 12/30/2013 at 10:18

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It's much faster than a lot of cars that are much more expensive than it. I'd say that deserves respect.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > Joe_Limon 12/30/2013 at 10:20

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Using that logic every Italian/British sports car ever made can be called overrated.

Joe_Limon > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 12/30/2013 at 11:08

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People expect sports cars to be unreliable though. Being unreliable isn't a common feature of rugged off road vehicles.

Goshen, formerly Darkcode > Burrito de EJ25 12/30/2013 at 11:13

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A V8 Mustang is also much faster than a lot of cars that are much more expensive than it. Does that mean I should call it the be-all-end-all of motoring?

Burrito de EJ25 > Goshen, formerly Darkcode 12/30/2013 at 11:19

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Nobody calls the GT-R the be-all-end-all. You're being dramatic. It is, however, an extraordinary vehicle.

Goshen, formerly Darkcode > Burrito de EJ25 12/30/2013 at 11:23

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Excuse me, but whatever place in the internet you go to there'll be a bunch of people jerking over it like it was the best thing ever created after sex and chocolate. How am I being dramatic?

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > Joe_Limon 12/30/2013 at 11:38

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They drive Land Rover's around the world (except for when they're on the ship of course) across Africa and from London to Beijing. Land Rovers are the most reliable unreliable cars you'll ever own. Also 75% of all Land Rovers ever made are still in use today so they're not THAT unreliable.

Joe_Limon > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 12/30/2013 at 12:01

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Its amazing what a rich backer and a pile of replacement parts can do.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > Joe_Limon 12/30/2013 at 12:06

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Yeah, pitty they didn't have that...

Joe_Limon > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 12/30/2013 at 12:10

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Oh nice annecdote perhaps I should drive an old neon around the world.

Here are some better statistics that aren't isolated to a single usage.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2…

JEM > Road Magazine 12/30/2013 at 12:40

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Ford Focus.

I had a rental one a couple years ago and it felt like I was bothering it by asking it to drive anywhere or do anything.

For comparison, I had a rental Kia Soul a month later and that was fantastic. Acted like a puppy wagging it's tail all the time it was so eager.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > Joe_Limon 12/30/2013 at 12:40

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I'd take that with a grain of salt as they include things like blown light bulbs and don't specify product lines so anything with the Freelander in it's line is going to be weighed down.

Also Jeep and Land Rover switch places at the bottom of the list year after year, are you going to tell me that the Jeep is also over rated?

Joe_Limon > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 12/30/2013 at 13:51

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More or less, also reliability is being able to count on all parts of your car to keep functioning. While losing automatic door locks may seem trivial, it is far from trivial when visiting a third world county in a vehicle near six figures.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > Joe_Limon 12/30/2013 at 14:25

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Agree to disagree then, I'd take broken door locks over rust issues though. It's easier to replace a door lock than a chassis.

Joe_Limon > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 12/30/2013 at 14:51

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Nice, congrats on your attempt to turn my argument into something it isn't. You have your broken locks, faulty wiring, and broken switches. I'll just enjoy my vehicle that is reliable in every sense.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > Joe_Limon 12/30/2013 at 15:03

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No, I'm just pointing out that every "rugged" 4x4 has it's own sets of issues that owners have to deal with in the long term and that no 4x4 is perfect.

Joe_Limon > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 12/30/2013 at 15:27

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"Rugged" means every component should be beefier, from the volume knob on the stereo to the tyre used.

All the study I showed is saying is that in general, land rovers have more issues...

davedave1111 > Joe_Limon 12/30/2013 at 15:31

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There are two kinds of reliability. There's the ordinary, everyday, kind, where you go to your car, get in, and it starts and everything works very nearly every time. When it goes wrong, though, it'll be unexpected.

Something like an old Landy has the other kind of reliability. You know what will wear out, and when. You can predict the need for a new whatsit as reliably as predicting the need to fill up the tank when empty.

With the old Landies it's all about knowing where they're at maintenance-wise, and making sure you have everything needed for the jobs that are going to come up. If you have that, you can be absolutely secure you won't be stranded in the middle of nowhere.

mr. idk > In a Mini; let them mock me as My Mini Countryman is higher than you 12/30/2013 at 15:43

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LOL the GTR has a +100hp advantadge, a dual clutch tranny, and AWD. It BETTER be faster!!! oh, and you are comparing a car from 2014 to a car from 2008. Wait TWO WEEKS, for when the 2015 Z06 debuts. The GTR will be slayed once again. And dont forget that the 2009-12 corvette zr1 was faster than the 2009-12 GTR. Oh, and dont forget that the GTR is ugly as sin...

Joe_Limon > davedave1111 12/30/2013 at 15:46

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By that logic, any car even a Ferrari is reliable.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > Joe_Limon 12/30/2013 at 16:16

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Well all I know is that I see Land Rovers running on 34's/35's getting the piss beat out of them on stock axles and the failure rate is about the same as the Jeeps and Yotas on the same trails.

davedave1111 > Joe_Limon 12/30/2013 at 16:18

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Not really. It's the difference between something that goes wrong unpredictably, and something entirely predictable. If you buy, say, a Peugeot 607 with all the toys, the only thing you can rely on is that something will go wrong. What it'll be next, or how bad, is anyone's guess.

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/peuge…

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Severe lift-off oversteer problem in 'Elk avoidance' test delayed the launch but made sure the car is properly sorted.

Doomed by the lack of success of the 605, so expect huge depreciation making used examples a lot of car for the money.

Peugeots generally had below average warranty repair costs in 2003 Warranty Direct Reliability index (index 86.25 v/s lowest 31.93). Link:- www.reliabilityindex.co.uk

A small batch of RHD 607s for the UK were accidentally misbuilt with heavy duty suspension, so if your car rides badly it could be one of this batch and Peugeot would originally rectify by fitting the correct suspension.

Motors for electric drivers seats of early cars left little space for padding in the squab and made the seats hard and uncomfortable. Cured completely by 2003.

Can be niggly problems including broken electric window, sticking drivers door, windscreen washer warning light always on, airbag warning light always on, airbag problems.

On HDIs, rubber cushioned timing belt pulley needs replacing at same time as timing belt (60k - 70k miles) otherwise can separate.

31-12-2012: 'Gong' sound means that car battery is failing to hold sufficient charge and needs to be replaced.

The old 605 was even worst. Honest John just has "Riddled with build-quality and electrical problems."

Here's an old TG review of the 607. I like it a lot more than the host does, apparently, but it's the list of toys at the end that's so worrisome.

Joe_Limon > davedave1111 12/30/2013 at 16:30

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Actually, if you follow the forums for any vehicle you remove the surprise aspect.

davedave1111 > Joe_Limon 12/30/2013 at 16:33

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Not with the properly unreliable ones. The whole point is that some cars, however well you know them, are prone to having random things going wrong at random times. Something like a BMW viscous coupling is notoriously something that goes wrong, but once it's been recently fixed will be fine for a good while. On the really unreliable cars, just because it's been done recently means nothing.

Joe_Limon > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 12/30/2013 at 16:34

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Maybe you need to use a new term? Catastrophic failure vs failure in general?

Joe_Limon > davedave1111 12/30/2013 at 16:51

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So a car which has to replace its ball joints every 1000 miles is reliable because you can know schedule when it will be in for repair, but a car that may have a head gasket go or not go every 50,000 miles is somehow less reliable?

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > Joe_Limon 12/30/2013 at 16:58

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I guess. As long as the vehicle can get you to your destination and back without stranding you consistently, the rest is just minor annoyences IMHO.

wkiernan > Road Magazine 12/30/2013 at 17:30

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I'm going to say the full-size pickup truck, when used as a passenger car.

davedave1111 > Joe_Limon 12/30/2013 at 18:27

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No. I have no idea how you're getting there from what I'm saying. A car which (hypothetically) has random stuff go wrong every thousand miles is less reliable than a car which has the ball joints go every thousand miles. Mind you, a 605 doesn't even make it to a thousand miles on average between problems. Hell, most didn't make it to a thousand miles from new without some kind of repair.

Joe_Limon > davedave1111 12/30/2013 at 18:34

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Ok... I thought I made it pretty clear, are you sure you're not being defensive? I concede to your point, but I was more so wondering your opinion on my earlier point.

davedave1111 > Joe_Limon 12/30/2013 at 18:54

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Not trying to have an argument if you're not :)

Which earlier point do you mean?

Joe_Limon > davedave1111 12/30/2013 at 20:17

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What do you believe is more reliable, a car with a part that requires scheduled maintenance every 1000 miles or else you risk catastrophic failure. Or a vehicle that may or may not require a replacement part every 50,000 miles after a component goes.

davedave1111 > Joe_Limon 12/30/2013 at 20:30

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Oh, I see what you meant now. The thing with old Landies is that it isn't necessarily anything major like ball-joints, but there'll be little things that crop up almost continuously, as well as more major ones at longer intervals. By the time they're old, those things probably aren't all in sync, even if they were designed to be originally.

But it's not like something genuinely unreliable where shit just keeps going wrong right, left, and centre.

So it's hard to answer your question. If the regular scheduled 1000 mile maintenance is something fairly major like ball joints, it's a killer, of course. I'd much rather have the 50k miler. If it's an oil-check, well, you ought to do it more often than that, so it's not a killer, same for anything else that minor. Somewhere in the middle? Hard to say.

If we're talking about driving through the middle of nowhere, though - we were, remember? - then the reliability you want is to know what's going to go wrong, so you might even pick having to replace the ball-joints over an unknown quantity. Kind of like how NASA used old tech in the space program wherever possible because it was proven.

The Landies are the same. They will definitely need work doing, but they've been around so long, in so many environments, that you know from (other people's) experience what is going to break and when.

Joe_Limon > davedave1111 12/30/2013 at 20:45

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Let me further define my question. The 50,000 mile component could be anything, from a lightbulb, to a connecting rod, or maybe even nothing at all. The 1000 mile components are known and do result in sudden catastrophic failure if not maintained/replaced as per schedule.

davedave1111 > Joe_Limon 12/30/2013 at 20:58

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I can't really give you an answer. It depends on the situation. If you were going on a mission to Mars and shipping wasn't a problem as long as you took it all with you, but no resupply (or something, the point is you have no access to outside help during your trip) , which would you choose? For me, it's the known quantity every time.

For general driving around London, I'd take the 50k miler, of course. Evem though that 50k miles (or whatever) is normally just an average lifespan of a component, if it breaks down, I can always call a tow truck or a cab.

Perhaps the answer to your question is what I said right at the start: there are different forms of reliability. I'd say both vehicles are reliable in different ways. Asking which is more reliable doesn't really make sense, because we're using the word to mean different things in each case.

Joe_Limon > davedave1111 12/30/2013 at 21:03

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Fair response, although with a vehicle as prone to needed maintenance as the landie, can you remain 100% certain that it will always follow its scheduled maintenance? Afterall, we aren't talking about something as precision manufactured as a space craft.

davedave1111 > Joe_Limon 12/30/2013 at 21:13

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I don't know, you're making my brain work too hard. It's late here :)

Even the shuttle wasn't 100% reliable, sadly. But in a lot of ways Landies are far more proven than the shuttle ever was, even at the end of its life.

Another thing to throw into the mix which we haven't mentioned explicitly is the ease of working on something. One of the advantages old Landies have is that most jobs are pretty easy, and even the hard ones are mostly easier than the same job on something else. At least as long as you have spares, you shouldn't be in too much trouble.

evilfacelessturtle (Hooning a Ford is Domestic Abuse) > Goshen, formerly Darkcode 01/11/2014 at 00:01

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Exactly, it's a soulless machine. Might as well play Gran Turismo. I want to feel the road and be challenged a little, not just have the car make me look good because it's easy to drive fast. And it's not quite ugly but it's not good looking like the old Skylines. I'm sick of angular, aggressive designs. Bring back beautiful curves! But not like the Veyron, that's just a hot mess.

evilfacelessturtle (Hooning a Ford is Domestic Abuse) > In a Mini; let them mock me as My Mini Countryman is higher than you 01/11/2014 at 00:07

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What an articulate response.

evilfacelessturtle (Hooning a Ford is Domestic Abuse) > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 01/11/2014 at 00:10

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Not to mention they're all ugly. Remember when supercars were beautiful? Now everything has to be uber aggressive like the Egoista.

evilfacelessturtle (Hooning a Ford is Domestic Abuse) > Goshen, formerly Darkcode 01/11/2014 at 00:17

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Actually, I'd expand this to most new supercars. Not only have they become ugly (Lambos, Ferraris, Koeniggseggs, etc) but I can't stand how every douchebag that drives his Nissan like a race car thinks they're "fuckin dope bro". Y'know, people that don't know shit about cars, but call themselves enthusiasts because they like supercars and put horrific mods on their own cars.

marshknute > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 01/11/2014 at 00:40

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As a new car, the Toyobaru twins are good, not great. 10 years from now, however, they will be about $10K or less. And unlike anything the Germans make (looking at you BMW), they will be completely reliable and cheap to maintain. It will quite literally be THE go-to sports car.

Wait, haven't I heard this story before? Oh, right, that's why Miata is always the answer.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > marshknute 01/11/2014 at 00:57

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Two words: Boxer engine. Have fun with that maintenance. Those toyobarus will be dirt cheap because scheduled maintenance for things like spark plugs, gaskets, timing belt, etc, are more expensive. Oh and already owners at an SCCA event in August were complaining of oil leaks so reliability is NOT proven yet. Give it time. You don't know the future. Early "used miata" afficionados were basically buying 4-5 year old secretary cars from hairdressers and professional women who never abused them and kept them in garages and away from snow. How many toyobarus will NOT be beaten on hard?

Weather and Darkness > mr. idk 01/11/2014 at 22:45

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have you tried getting into the back of a challenger?

Weather and Darkness > JEM 01/11/2014 at 22:48

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this!
I've never understood the love for the Focus. And when I finally got to drive one I started to actively loathe it. And the new ones? Gimme a Mazda 3 over that any day.